alcibiades i-第4部分

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SOCRATES：　　You　want　to　know　whether　I　can　make　a　long　speech；　such　as　you

are　in　the　habit　of　hearing；　but　that　is　not　my　way。　　I　think；　however；

that　I　can　prove　to　you　the　truth　of　what　I　am　saying；　if　you　will　grant　me

one　little　favour。



ALCIBIADES：　　Yes；　if　the　favour　which　you　mean　be　not　a　troublesome　one。



SOCRATES：　　Will　you　be　troubled　at　having　questions　to　answer？



ALCIBIADES：　　Not　at　all。



SOCRATES：　　Then　please　to　answer。



ALCIBIADES：　　Ask　me。



SOCRATES：　　Have　you　not　the　intention　which　I　attribute　to　you？



ALCIBIADES：　　I　will　grant　anything　you　like；　in　the　hope　of　hearing　what

more　you　have　to　say。



SOCRATES：　　You　do；　then；　mean；　as　I　was　saying；　to　come　forward　in　a　little

while　in　the　character　of　an　adviser　of　the　Athenians？　　And　suppose　that

when　you　are　ascending　the　bema；　I　pull　you　by　the　sleeve　and　say；

Alcibiades；　you　are　getting　up　to　advise　the　Atheniansdo　you　know　the

matter　about　which　they　are　going　to　deliberate；　better　than　they？How

would　you　answer？



ALCIBIADES：　　I　should　reply；　that　I　was　going　to　advise　them　about　a　matter

which　I　do　know　better　than　they。



SOCRATES：　　Then　you　are　a　good　adviser　about　the　things　which　you　know？



ALCIBIADES：　　Certainly。



SOCRATES：　　And　do　you　know　anything　but　what　you　have　learned　of　others；　or

found　out　yourself？



ALCIBIADES：　　That　is　all。



SOCRATES：　　And　would　you　have　ever　learned　or　discovered　anything；　if　you

had　not　been　willing　either　to　learn　of　others　or　to　examine　yourself？



ALCIBIADES：　　I　should　not。



SOCRATES：　　And　would　you　have　been　willing　to　learn　or　to　examine　what　you

supposed　that　you　knew？



ALCIBIADES：　　Certainly　not。



SOCRATES：　　Then　there　was　a　time　when　you　thought　that　you　did　not　know

what　you　are　now　supposed　to　know？



ALCIBIADES：　　Certainly。



SOCRATES：　　I　think　that　I　know　tolerably　well　the　extent　of　your

acquirements；　and　you　must　tell　me　if　I　forget　any　of　them：　　according　to

my　recollection；　you　learned　the　arts　of　writing；　of　playing　on　the　lyre；

and　of　wrestling；　the　flute　you　never　would　learn；　this　is　the　sum　of　your

accomplishments；　unless　there　were　some　which　you　acquired　in　secret；　and　I

think　that　secrecy　was　hardly　possible；　as　you　could　not　have　come　out　of

your　door；　either　by　day　or　night；　without　my　seeing　you。



ALCIBIADES：　　Yes；　that　was　the　whole　of　my　schooling。



SOCRATES：　　And　are　you　going　to　get　up　in　the　Athenian　assembly；　and　give

them　advice　about　writing？



ALCIBIADES：　　No；　indeed。



SOCRATES：　　Or　about　the　touch　of　the　lyre？



ALCIBIADES：　　Certainly　not。



SOCRATES：　　And　they　are　not　in　the　habit　of　deliberating　about　wrestling；

in　the　assembly？



ALCIBIADES：　　Hardly。



SOCRATES：　　Then　what　are　the　deliberations　in　which　you　propose　to　advise

them？　　Surely　not　about　building？



ALCIBIADES：　　No。



SOCRATES：　　For　the　builder　will　advise　better　than　you　will　about　that？



ALCIBIADES：　　He　will。



SOCRATES：　　Nor　about　divination？



ALCIBIADES：　　No。



SOCRATES：　　About　that　again　the　diviner　will　advise　better　than　you　will？



ALCIBIADES：　　True。



SOCRATES：　　Whether　he　be　little　or　great；　good　or　ill…looking；　noble　or

ignoblemakes　no　difference。



ALCIBIADES：　　Certainly　not。



SOCRATES：　　A　man　is　a　good　adviser　about　anything；　not　because　he　has

riches；　but　because　he　has　knowledge？



ALCIBIADES：　　Assuredly。



SOCRATES：　　Whether　their　counsellor　is　rich　or　poor；　is　not　a　matter　which

will　make　any　difference　to　the　Athenians　when　they　are　deliberating　about

the　health　of　the　citizens；　they　only　require　that　he　should　be　a

physician。



ALCIBIADES：　　Of　course。



SOCRATES：　　Then　what　will　be　the　subject　of　deliberation　about　which　you

will　be　justified　in　getting　up　and　advising　them？



ALCIBIADES：　　About　their　own　concerns；　Socrates。



SOCRATES：　　You　mean　about　shipbuilding；　for　example；　when　the　question　is

what　sort　of　ships　they　ought　to　build？



ALCIBIADES：　　No；　I　should　not　advise　them　about　that。



SOCRATES：　　I　suppose；　because　you　do　not　understand　shipbuilding：is　that

the　reason？



ALCIBIADES：　　It　is。



SOCRATES：　　Then　about　what　concerns　of　theirs　will　you　advise　them？



ALCIBIADES：　　About　war；　Socrates；　or　about　peace；　or　about　any　other

concerns　of　the　state。



SOCRATES：　　You　mean；　when　they　deliberate　with　whom　they　ought　to　make

peace；　and　with　whom　they　ought　to　go　to　war；　and　in　what　manner？



ALCIBIADES：　　Yes。



SOCRATES：　　And　they　ought　to　go　to　war　with　those　against　whom　it　is　better

to　go　to　war？



ALCIBIADES：　　Yes。



SOCRATES：　　And　when　it　is　better？



ALCIBIADES：　　Certainly。



SOCRATES：　　And　for　as　long　a　time　as　is　better？



ALCIBIADES：　　Yes。



SOCRATES：　　But　suppose　the　Athenians　to　deliberate　with　whom　they　ought　to

close　in　wrestling；　and　whom　they　should　grasp　by　the　hand；　would　you；　or

the　master　of　gymnastics；　be　a　better　adviser　of　them？



ALCIBIADES：　　Clearly；　the　master　of　gymnastics。



SOCRATES：　　And　can　you　tell　me　on　what　grounds　the　master　of　gymnastics

would　decide；　with　whom　they　ought　or　ought　not　to　close；　and　when　and　how？

To　take　an　instance：　　Would　he　not　say　that　they　should　wrestle　with　those

against　whom　it　is　best　to　wrestle？



ALCIBIADES：　　Yes。



SOCRATES：　　And　as　much　as　is　best？



ALCIBIADES：　　Certainly。



SOCRATES：　　And　at　such　times　as　are　best？



ALCIBIADES：　　Yes。



SOCRATES：　　Again；　you　sometimes　accompany　the　lyre　with　the　song　and　dance？



ALCIBIADES：　　Yes。



SOCRATES：　　When　it　is　well　to　do　so？



ALCIBIADES：　　Yes。



SOCRATES：　　And　as　much　as　is　well？



ALCIBIADES：　　Just　so。



SOCRATES：　　And　as　you　speak　of　an　excellence　or　art　of　the　best　in

wrestling；　and　of　an　excellence　in　playing　the　lyre；　I　wish　you　would　tell

me　what　this　latter　is；the　excellence　of　wrestling　I　call　gymnastic；　and

I　want　to　know　what　you　call　the　other。



ALCIBIADES：　　I　do　not　understand　you。



SOCRATES：　　Then　try　to　do　as　I　do；　for　the　answer　which　I　gave　is

universally　right；　and　when　I　say　right；　I　mean　according　to　rule。



ALCIBIADES：　　Yes。



SOCRATES：　　And　was　not　the　art　of　which　I　spoke　gymnastic？



ALCIBIADES：　　Certainly。



SOCRATES：　　And　I　called　the　excellence　in　wrestling　gymnastic？



ALCIBIADES：　　You　did。



SOCRATES：　　And　I　was　right？



ALCIBIADES：　　I　think　that　you　were。



SOCRATES：　　Well；　now；for　you　should　learn　to　argue　prettilylet　me　ask

you　in　return　to　tell　me；　first；　what　is　that　art　of　which　playing　and

singing；　and　stepping　properly　in　the　dance；　are　parts；what　is　the　name

of　the　whole？　　I　think　that　by　this　time　you　must　be　able　to　tell。



ALCIBIADES：　　Indeed　I　cannot。



SOCRATES：　　Then　let　me　put　the　matter　in　another　way：　　what　do　you　call　the

Goddesses　who　are　the　patronesses　of　art？



ALCIBIADES：　　The　Muses　do　you　mean；　Socrates？



SOCRATES：　　Yes；　I　do；　and　what　is　the　name　of　the　art　which　is　called　after

them？



ALCIBIADES：　　I　suppose　that　you　mean　music。



SOCRATES：　　Yes；　that　is　my　meaning；　and　what　is　the　excellence　of　the　art

of　music；　as　I　told　you　truly　that　the　excellence　of　wrestling　was

gymnasticwhat　is　the　excellence　of　musicto　be　what？



ALCIBIADES：　　To　be　musical；　I　suppose。



SOCRATES：　　Very　good；　and　now　please　to　tell　me　what　is　the　excellence　of

war　and　peace；　as　the　more　musical　was　the　more　excellent；　or　the　more

gymnastical　was　the　more　excellent；　tell　me；　what　name　do　you　give　to　the

more　excellent　in　war　and　peace？



ALCIBIADES：　　But　I　really　cannot　tell　you。



SOCRATES：　　But　if　you　were　offering　advice　to　another　and　said　to　himThis

food　is　better　than　that；　at　this　time　and　in　this　quantity；　and　he　said　to

youWhat　do　you　mean；　Alcibiades；　by　the　word　'better'？　you　would　have　no

difficulty　in　replying　that　you　meant　'more　wholesome；'　although　you　do　not

profess　to　be　a　physician：　　and　when　the　subject　is　one　of　which　you

profess　to　have　knowledge；　and　about　which　you　are　ready　to　get　up　and

advise　as　if　you　knew；　are　you　not　ashamed；　when　you　are　asked；　not　to　be

able　to　answer　the　question？　　Is　it　not　disgraceful？



ALCIBIADES：　　Very。



SOCRATES：　　Well；　then；　consider　and　try　to　explain　what　is　the　meaning　of

'better；'　in　the　matter　of　making　peace　and　going　to　war　with　those　against

whom　you　ought　to　go　to　war？　　To　what　does　the　word　refer？



ALCIBIADES：　　I　am　thinking；　and　I　cannot　tell。



SOCRATES：　　But　you　surely　know　what　are　the　charges　which　we　bring　against

one　another；　when　we　arrive　at　the　point　of　making　war；　and　what　name　we

give　them？



ALCIBIADES：　　Yes；　certainly；　we　say　that　deceit　or　violence　has　been

employed；　or　that　we　have　been　defrauded。



SOCRATES：　　And　how　does　this　happen？　　Will　you　tell　me　how？　　For　there　may

be　a　difference　in　the　manner。



ALCIBIADES：　　Do　you　mean　by　'how；'　Socrates；　whether　we　suffered　these

things　justly　or　unjustly？



SOCRATES：　　Exactly。



ALCIBIADES：　　There　can　be　no　greater　difference　than　between　just　and

unjust。



SOCRATES：　　And　would　you　advise　the　Athenians　to　go　to　war　with　the　just　or

with　the　unjust？



ALCIBIADES：　　That　is　an　awkward　question；　for　certainly；　even　if　a　person

did　intend　to　go　to　war　with　the　just；　he　would　not　admit　that　they　were

just。



SOCRATES：　　He　would　not　go　to　war；　because　it　would　be　unlawful？



ALCIBIADES：　　Neither　lawful　nor　honourable。



SOCRATES：　　Then　you；　too；　would　address　them　on　principles　of　justice？



ALCIBIADES：　　Certainly。



SOCRATES：　　What；　then；　is　justice　but　that　better；　of　which　I　spoke；　in

going　to　war　or　not　going　to　war　with　those　against　whom　we　ought　or　ought

not；　and　when　we　ought　or　ought　not　to　go　to　war？



ALCIBIADES：　　Clearly。



SOCRATES：　　But　how　is　this；　friend　Alcibiades？　　Have　you　forgotten　that　you

do　not　know　this；　or　have　you　been　to　the　schoolmaster