alcibiades i-第5部分

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do　not　know　this；　or　have　you　been　to　the　schoolmaster　without　my

knowledge；　and　has　he　taught　you　to　discern　the　just　from　the　unjust？　　Who

is　he？　　I　wish　you　would　tell　me；　that　I　may　go　and　learn　of　himyou　shall

introduce　me。



ALCIBIADES：　　You　are　mocking；　Socrates。



SOCRATES：　　No；　indeed；　I　most　solemnly　declare　to　you　by　Zeus；　who　is　the

God　of　our　common　friendship；　and　whom　I　never　will　forswear；　that　I　am

not；　tell　me；　then；　who　this　instructor　is；　if　he　exists。



ALCIBIADES：　　But；　perhaps；　he　does　not　exist；　may　I　not　have　acquired　the

knowledge　of　just　and　unjust　in　some　other　way？



SOCRATES：　　Yes；　if　you　have　discovered　them。



ALCIBIADES：　　But　do　you　not　think　that　I　could　discover　them？



SOCRATES：　　I　am　sure　that　you　might；　if　you　enquired　about　them。



ALCIBIADES：　　And　do　you　not　think　that　I　would　enquire？



SOCRATES：　　Yes；　if　you　thought　that　you　did　not　know　them。



ALCIBIADES：　　And　was　there　not　a　time　when　I　did　so　think？



SOCRATES：　　Very　good；　and　can　you　tell　me　how　long　it　is　since　you　thought

that　you　did　not　know　the　nature　of　the　just　and　the　unjust？　　What　do　you

say　to　a　year　ago？　　Were　you　then　in　a　state　of　conscious　ignorance　and

enquiry？　　Or　did　you　think　that　you　knew？　　And　please　to　answer　truly；　that

our　discussion　may　not　be　in　vain。



ALCIBIADES：　　Well；　I　thought　that　I　knew。



SOCRATES：　　And　two　years　ago；　and　three　years　ago；　and　four　years　ago；　you

knew　all　the　same？



ALCIBIADES：　　I　did。



SOCRATES：　　And　more　than　four　years　ago　you　were　a　childwere　you　not？



ALCIBIADES：　　Yes。



SOCRATES：　　And　then　I　am　quite　sure　that　you　thought　you　knew。



ALCIBIADES：　　Why　are　you　so　sure？



SOCRATES：　　Because　I　often　heard　you　when　a　child；　in　your　teacher's　house；

or　elsewhere；　playing　at　dice　or　some　other　game　with　the　boys；　not

hesitating　at　all　about　the　nature　of　the　just　and　unjust；　but　very

confidentcrying　and　shouting　that　one　of　the　boys　was　a　rogue　and　a

cheat；　and　had　been　cheating。　　Is　it　not　true？



ALCIBIADES：　　But　what　was　I　to　do；　Socrates；　when　anybody　cheated　me？



SOCRATES：　　And　how　can　you　say；　'What　was　I　to　do'？　if　at　the　time　you　did

not　know　whether　you　were　wronged　or　not？



ALCIBIADES：　　To　be　sure　I　knew；　I　was　quite　aware　that　I　was　being　cheated。



SOCRATES：　　Then　you　suppose　yourself　even　when　a　child　to　have　known　the

nature　of　just　and　unjust？



ALCIBIADES：　　Certainly；　and　I　did　know　then。



SOCRATES：　　And　when　did　you　discover　themnot；　surely；　at　the　time　when

you　thought　that　you　knew　them？



ALCIBIADES：　　Certainly　not。



SOCRATES：　　And　when　did　you　think　that　you　were　ignorantif　you　consider；

you　will　find　that　there　never　was　such　a　time？



ALCIBIADES：　　Really；　Socrates；　I　cannot　say。



SOCRATES：　　Then　you　did　not　learn　them　by　discovering　them？



ALCIBIADES：　　Clearly　not。



SOCRATES：　　But　just　before　you　said　that　you　did　not　know　them　by　learning；

now；　if　you　have　neither　discovered　nor　learned　them；　how　and　whence　do　you

come　to　know　them？



ALCIBIADES：　　I　suppose　that　I　was　mistaken　in　saying　that　I　knew　them

through　my　own　discovery　of　them；　whereas；　in　truth；　I　learned　them　in　the

same　way　that　other　people　learn。



SOCRATES：　　So　you　said　before；　and　I　must　again　ask；　of　whom？　　Do　tell　me。



ALCIBIADES：　　Of　the　many。



SOCRATES：　　Do　you　take　refuge　in　them？　　I　cannot　say　much　for　your

teachers。



ALCIBIADES：　　Why；　are　they　not　able　to　teach？



SOCRATES：　　They　could　not　teach　you　how　to　play　at　draughts；　which　you

would　acknowledge　（would　you　not）　to　be　a　much　smaller　matter　than　justice？



ALCIBIADES：　　Yes。



SOCRATES：　　And　can　they　teach　the　better　who　are　unable　to　teach　the　worse？



ALCIBIADES：　　I　think　that　they　can；　at　any　rate；　they　can　teach　many　far

better　things　than　to　play　at　draughts。



SOCRATES：　　What　things？



ALCIBIADES：　　Why；　for　example；　I　learned　to　speak　Greek　of　them；　and　I

cannot　say　who　was　my　teacher；　or　to　whom　I　am　to　attribute　my　knowledge　of

Greek；　if　not　to　those　good…for…nothing　teachers；　as　you　call　them。



SOCRATES：　　Why；　yes；　my　friend；　and　the　many　are　good　enough　teachers　of

Greek；　and　some　of　their　instructions　in　that　line　may　be　justly　praised。



ALCIBIADES：　　Why　is　that？



SOCRATES：　　Why；　because　they　have　the　qualities　which　good　teachers　ought

to　have。



ALCIBIADES：　　What　qualities？



SOCRATES：　　Why；　you　know　that　knowledge　is　the　first　qualification　of　any

teacher？



ALCIBIADES：　　Certainly。



SOCRATES：　　And　if　they　know；　they　must　agree　together　and　not　differ？



ALCIBIADES：　　Yes。



SOCRATES：　　And　would　you　say　that　they　knew　the　things　about　which　they

differ？



ALCIBIADES：　　No。



SOCRATES：　　Then　how　can　they　teach　them？



ALCIBIADES：　　They　cannot。



SOCRATES：　　Well；　but　do　you　imagine　that　the　many　would　differ　about　the

nature　of　wood　and　stone？　are　they　not　agreed　if　you　ask　them　what　they

are？　and　do　they　not　run　to　fetch　the　same　thing；　when　they　want　a　piece　of

wood　or　a　stone？　　And　so　in　similar　cases；　which　I　suspect　to　be　pretty

nearly　all　that　you　mean　by　speaking　Greek。



ALCIBIADES：　　True。



SOCRATES：　　These；　as　we　were　saying；　are　matters　about　which　they　are

agreed　with　one　another　and　with　themselves；　both　individuals　and　states

use　the　same　words　about　them；　they　do　not　use　some　one　word　and　some

another。



ALCIBIADES：　　They　do　not。



SOCRATES：　　Then　they　may　be　expected　to　be　good　teachers　of　these　things？



ALCIBIADES：　　Yes。



SOCRATES：　　And　if　we　want　to　instruct　any　one　in　them；　we　shall　be　right　in

sending　him　to　be　taught　by　our　friends　the　many？



ALCIBIADES：　　Very　true。



SOCRATES：　　But　if　we　wanted　further　to　know　not　only　which　are　men　and

which　are　horses；　but　which　men　or　horses　have　powers　of　running；　would　the

many　still　be　able　to　inform　us？



ALCIBIADES：　　Certainly　not。



SOCRATES：　　And　you　have　a　sufficient　proof　that　they　do　not　know　these

things　and　are　not　the　best　teachers　of　them；　inasmuch　as　they　are　never

agreed　about　them？



ALCIBIADES：　　Yes。　　



SOCRATES：　　And　suppose　that　we　wanted　to　know　not　only　what　men　are　like；

but　what　healthy　or　diseased　men　are　likewould　the　many　be　able　to　teach

us？



ALCIBIADES：　　They　would　not。



SOCRATES：　　And　you　would　have　a　proof　that　they　were　bad　teachers　of　these

matters；　if　you　saw　them　at　variance？



ALCIBIADES：　　I　should。



SOCRATES：　　Well；　but　are　the　many　agreed　with　themselves；　or　with　one

another；　about　the　justice　or　injustice　of　men　and　things？



ALCIBIADES：　　Assuredly　not；　Socrates。



SOCRATES：　　There　is　no　subject　about　which　they　are　more　at　variance？



ALCIBIADES：　　None。



SOCRATES：　　I　do　not　suppose　that　you　ever　saw　or　heard　of　men　quarrelling

over　the　principles　of　health　and　disease　to　such　an　extent　as　to　go　to　war

and　kill　one　another　for　the　sake　of　them？



ALCIBIADES：　　No　indeed。



SOCRATES：　　But　of　the　quarrels　about　justice　and　injustice；　even　if　you

have　never　seen　them；　you　have　certainly　heard　from　many　people；　including

Homer；　for　you　have　heard　of　the　Iliad　and　Odyssey？



ALCIBIADES：　　To　be　sure；　Socrates。



SOCRATES：　　A　difference　of　just　and　unjust　is　the　argument　of　those　poems？



ALCIBIADES：　　True。



SOCRATES：　　Which　difference　caused　all　the　wars　and　deaths　of　Trojans　and

Achaeans；　and　the　deaths　of　the　suitors　of　Penelope　in　their　quarrel　with

Odysseus。



ALCIBIADES：　　Very　true。



SOCRATES：　　And　when　the　Athenians　and　Lacedaemonians　and　Boeotians　fell　at

Tanagra；　and　afterwards　in　the　battle　of　Coronea；　at　which　your　father

Cleinias　met　his　end；　the　question　was　one　of　justicethis　was　the　sole

cause　of　the　battles；　and　of　their　deaths。



ALCIBIADES：　　Very　true。



SOCRATES：　　But　can　they　be　said　to　understand　that　about　which　they　are

quarrelling　to　the　death？



ALCIBIADES：　　Clearly　not。



SOCRATES：　　And　yet　those　whom　you　thus　allow　to　be　ignorant　are　the

teachers　to　whom　you　are　appealing。



ALCIBIADES：　　Very　true。



SOCRATES：　　But　how　are　you　ever　likely　to　know　the　nature　of　justice　and

injustice；　about　which　you　are　so　perplexed；　if　you　have　neither　learned

them　of　others　nor　discovered　them　yourself？



ALCIBIADES：　　From　what　you　say；　I　suppose　not。



SOCRATES：　　See；　again；　how　inaccurately　you　speak；　Alcibiades！



ALCIBIADES：　　In　what　respect？



SOCRATES：　　In　saying　that　I　say　so。



ALCIBIADES：　　Why；　did　you　not　say　that　I　know　nothing　of　the　just　and

unjust？



SOCRATES：　　No；　I　did　not。



ALCIBIADES：　　Did　I；　then？



SOCRATES：　　Yes。



ALCIBIADES：　　How　was　that？



SOCRATES：　　Let　me　explain。　　Suppose　I　were　to　ask　you　which　is　the　greater

number；　two　or　one；　you　would　reply　'two'？



ALCIBIADES：　　I　should。



SOCRATES：　　And　by　how　much　greater？



ALCIBIADES：　　By　one。



SOCRATES：　　Which　of　us　now　says　that　two　is　more　than　one？



ALCIBIADES：　　I　do。



SOCRATES：　　Did　not　I　ask；　and　you　answer　the　question？



ALCIBIADES：　　Yes。



SOCRATES：　　Then　who　is　speaking？　　I　who　put　the　question；　or　you　who　answer

me？



ALCIBIADES：　　I　am。



SOCRATES：　　Or　suppose　that　I　ask　and　you　tell　me　the　letters　which　make　up

the　name　Socrates；　which　of　us　is　the　speaker？



ALCIBIADES：　　I　am。



SOCRATES：　　Now　let　us　put　the　case　generally：　　whenever　there　is　a　question

and　answer；　who　is　the　speaker；the　questioner　or　the　answerer？



ALCIBIADES：　　I　should　say；　Socrates；　that　the　answerer　was　the　speaker。



SOCRATES：　　And　have　I　not　been　the　questioner　all　through？



ALCIBIADES：　　Yes。



SOCRATES：　　And　you　the　answerer？



ALCIBIADES：　　Just　so。



SOCRATES：　　Which　of　us；　then；　was　the　speaker？



ALCIBIADES：　　The　inference　is；　Socrates；　that　I　was　the　speaker。



SOCRATES：　　Did　not　some　one　say　that　Alcibiades；　the　fair　son　of　Cleinias；

not　understanding　about　just　and　unju