gorgias-第16部分

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e　diseases；　not　of　the　body；　but　of　the　soul；　which　is　the　more　valuable　part　of　him；　neither　is　life　worth　having　nor　of　any　profit　to　the　bad　man；　whether　he　be　delivered　from　the　sea；　or　the　law…courts；　or　any　other　devourer…and　so　he　reflects　that　such　a　one　had　better　not　live；　for　he　cannot　live　well。　　　And　this　is　the　reason　why　the　pilot；　although　he　is　our　saviour；　is　not　usually　conceited；　any　more　than　the　engineer；　who　is　not　at　all　behind　either　the　general；　or　the　pilot；　or　any　one　else；　in　his　saving　power；　for　he　sometimes　saves　whole　cities。　Is　there　any　comparison　between　him　and　the　pleader？　And　if　he　were　to　talk；　Callicles；　in　your　grandiose　style；　he　would　bury　you　under　a　mountain　of　words；　declaring　and　insisting　that　we　ought　all　of　us　to　be　engine…makers；　and　that　no　other　profession　is　worth　thinking　about；　he　would　have　plenty　to　say。　Nevertheless　you　despise　him　and　his　art；　and　sneeringly　call　him　an　engine…maker；　and　you　will　not　allow　your　daughters　to　marry　his　son；　or　marry　your　son　to　his　daughters。　And　yet；　on　your　principle；　what　justice　or　reason　is　there　in　your　refusal？　What　right　have　you　to　despise　the　engine…maker；　and　the　others　whom　I　was　just　now　mentioning？　I　know　that　you　will　say；　〃I　am　better；　better　born。〃　But　if　the　better　is　not　what　I　say；　and　virtue　consists　only　in　a　man　saving　himself　and　his；　whatever　may　be　his　character；　then　your　censure　of　the　engine…maker；　and　of　the　physician；　and　of　the　other　arts　of　salvation；　is　ridiculous。　O　my　friend！　I　want　you　to　see　that　the　noble　and　the　good　may　possibly　be　something　different　from　saving　and　being　saved：…May　not　he　who　is　truly　a　man　cease　to　care　about　living　a　certain　time？…he　knows；　as　women　say；　that　no　man　can　escape　fate；　and　therefore　he　is　not　fond　of　life；　he　leaves　all　that　with　God；　and　considers　in　what　way　he　can　best　spend　his　appointed　term…whether　by　assimilating　himself　to　the　constitution　under　which　he　lives；　as　you　at　this　moment　have　to　consider　how　you　may　become　as　like　as　possible　to　the　Athenian　people；　if　you　mean　to　be　in　their　good　graces；　and　to　have　power　in　the　state；　whereas　I　want　you　to　think　and　see　whether　this　is　for　the　interest　of　either　of　us…I　would　not　have　us　risk　that　which　is　dearest　on　the　acquisition　of　this　power；　like　the　Thessalian　enchantresses；　who；　as　they　say；　bring　down　the　moon　from　heaven　at　the　risk　of　their　own　perdition。　But　if　you　suppose　that　any　man　will　show　you　the　art　of　becoming　great　in　the　city；　and　yet　not　conforming　yourself　to　the　ways　of　the　city；　whether　for　better　or　worse；　then　I　can　only　say　that　you　are　mistaken；　Callides；　for　he　who　would　deserve　to　be　the　true　natural　friend　of　the　Athenian　Demus；　aye；　or　of　Pyrilampes'　darling　who　is　called　after　them；　must　be　by　nature　like　them；　and　not　an　imitator　only。　He；　then；　who　will　make　you　most　like　them；　will　make　you　as　you　desire；　a　statesman　and　orator：　for　every　man　is　pleased　when　he　is　spoken　to　in　his　own　language　and　spirit；　and　dislikes　any　other。　But　perhaps　you；　sweet　Callicles；　may　be　of　another　mind。　What　do　you　say？　　　Cal。　Somehow　or　other　your　words；　Socrates；　always　appear　to　me　to　be　good　words；　and　yet；　like　the　rest　of　the　world；　I　am　not　quite　convinced　by　them。　　　Soc。　The　reason　is；　Callicles；　that　the　love　of　Demus　which　abides　in　your　soul　is　an　adversary　to　me；　but　I　dare　say　that　if　we　recur　to　these　same　matters；　and　consider　them　more　thoroughly；　you　may　be　convinced　for　all　that。　Please；　then；　to　remember　that　there　are　two　processes　of　training　all　things；　including　body　and　soul；　in　the　one；　as　we　said；　we　treat　them　with　a　view　to　pleasure；　and　in　the　other　with　a　view　to　the　highest　good；　and　then　we　do　not　indulge　but　resist　them：　was　not　that　the　distinction　which　we　drew？　　　Cal。　Very　true。　　　Soc。　And　the　one　which　had　pleasure　in　view　was　just　a　vulgar　flattery：…was　not　that　another　of　our　conclusions？　　　Cal。　Be　it　so；　if　you　will　have　it。　　　Soc。　And　the　other　had　in　view　the　greatest　improvement　of　that　which　was　ministered　to；　whether　body　or　soul？　　　Cal。　Quite　true。　　　Soc。　And　must　we　not　have　the　same　end　in　view　in　the　treatment　of　our　city　and　citizens？　Must　we　not　try　and　make…them　as　good　as　possible？　For　we　have　already　discovered　that　there　is　no　use　in　imparting　to　them　any　other　good；　unless　the　mind　of　those　who　are　to　have　the　good；　whether　money；　or　office；　or　any　other　sort　of　power；　be　gentle　and　good。　Shall　we　say　that？　　　Cal。　Yes；　certainly；　if　you　like。　　　Soc。　Well；　then；　if　you　and　I；　Callicles；　were　intending　to　set　about　some　public　business；　and　were　advising　one　another　to　undertake　buildings；　such　as　walls；　docks　or　temples　of　the　largest　size；　ought　we　not　to　examine　ourselves；　first；　as　to　whether　we　know　or　do　not　know　the　art　of　building；　and　who　taught　us？…would　not　that　be　necessary；　Callicles？　　　Cal。　True。　　　Soc。　In　the　second　place；　we　should　have　to　consider　whether　we　had　ever　constructed　any　private　house；　either　of　our　own　or　for　our　friends；　and　whether　this　building　of　ours　was　a　success　or　not；　and　if　upon　consideration　we　found　that　we　had　had　good　and　eminent　masters；　and　had　been　successful　in　constructing　many　fine　buildings；　not　only　with　their　assistance；　but　without　them；　by　our　own　unaided　skill…in　that　case　prudence　would　not　dissuade　us　from　proceeding　to　the　construction　of　public　works。　But　if　we　had　no　master　to　show；　and　only　a　number　of　worthless　buildings　or　none　at　all；　then；　surely；　it　would　be　ridiculous　in　us　to　attempt　public　works；　or　to　advise　one　another　to　undertake　them。　Is　not　this　true？　　　Cal。　Certainly。　　　Soc。　And　does　not　the　same　hold　in　all　other　cases？　If　you　and　I　were　physicians；　and　were　advising　one　another　that　we　were　competent　to　practise　as　state…physicians；　should　I　not　ask　about　you；　and　would　you　not　ask　about　me；　Well；　but　how　about　Socrates　himself；　has　he　good　health？　and　was　any　one　else　ever　known　to　be　cured　by　him；　whether　slave　or　freeman？　And　I　should　make　the　same　enquiries　about　you。　And　if　we　arrived　at　the　conclusion　that　no　one；　whether　citizen　or　stranger；　man　or　woman；　had　ever　been　any　the　better　for　the　medical　skill　of　either　of　us；　then；　by　Heaven；　Callicles；　what　an　absurdity　to　think　that　we　or　any　human　being　should　be　so　silly　as　to　set　up　as　state…physicians　and　advise　others　like　ourselves　to　do　the　same；　without　having　first　practised　in　private；　whether　successfully　or　not；　and　acquired　experience　of　the　art！　Is　not　this；　as　they　say；　to　begin　with　the　big　jar　when　you　are　learning　the　potter's　art；　which　is　a　foolish　thing？　　　Cal。　True。　　　Soc。　And　now；　my　friend；　as　you　are　already　beginning　to　be　a　public　character；　and　are　admonishing　and　reproaching　me　for　not　being　one；　suppose　that　we　ask　a　few　questions　of　one　another。　Tell　me；　then；　Callicles；　how　about　making　any　of　the　citizens　better？　Was　there　ever　a　man　who　was　once　vicious；　or　unjust；　or　intemperate；　or　foolish；　and　became　by　the　help　of　Callicles　good　and　noble？　Was　there　ever　such　a　man；　whether　citizen　or　stranger；　slave　or　freeman？　Tell　me；　Callicles；　if　a　person　were　to　ask　these　questions　of　you；　what　would　you　answer？　Whom　would　you　say　that…you　had　improved　by　your　conversation？　There　may　have　been　good　deeds　of　this　sort　which　were　done　by　you　as　a　private　person；　before　you　came　forward　in　public。　Why　will　you　not　answer？　　　Cal。　You　are　contentious；　Socrates。　　　Soc。　Nay；　I　ask　you；　not　from　a　love　of　contention；　but　because　I　really　want　to　know　in　what　way　you　think　that　affairs　should　be　administered　among　us…whether；　when　you　come　to　the　administration　of　them；　you　have　any　other　aim　but　the　improvement　of　the　citizens？　Have　we　not　already　admitted　many　times　over　that　such　is　the　duty　of　a　public　man？　Nay；　we　have　surely　said　so；　for　if　you　will　not　answer　for　yourself　I　must　answer　for　you。　But　if　this　is　what　the　good　man　ought　to　effect　for　the　benefit　of　his　own　state；　allow　me　to　recall　to　you　the　names　of　those　whom　you　were　just　now　mentioning；　Pericles；　and　Cimon；　and　Miltiades；　and　Themistocles；　and　ask　whether　you　still　think　that　they　were　good　citizens。　　　Cal。　I　do。　　　Soc。　But　if　they　were　good；　then　clearly　each　of　them　must　have　made　the　citizens　better　instead　of　worse？　　　Cal。　Yes。　　　Soc。　And；　therefore；　when　Pericles　first　began　to　speak　in　the　assembly；　the　Athenians　were　not　so　good　as　when　he　spoke　last？　　　Cal。　Very　likely。　　　Soc。　Nay；　my　friend；　〃likely〃　is　not　the　word；　for　if　he　was　a　good　citizen；　the　inference　is　certain。　　　Cal。　And　what　difference　does　that　make？　　　Soc。　None；　only　I　should　like　further　to　know　whether　the　Athenians　are　supposed　to　have　been　made　better　by　Pericles；　or；　on　the　contrary；　to　have　been　corrupted　by　him；　for　I　hear　that　he　was　the　first　who　gave　the　people　pay；　and　made　them　idle　and　cowardly；　and　encouraged　them　in　the　love　of　talk　and　money。　　　Cal。　You　heard　that；　Socrates；　from　the　laconising　set　who　bruise　their　ears。　　　Soc。　But　what　I　am　going　to　tell　you　now　is　not　mere　hearsay；　but　well　known　both　to　you　and　me：　that　at　first；　Pericles　was　glorious　and　his　character　unimpeached　by　any　verdict　of　the　Athenians…this　was　during　the　time　when　they　were　not　so　good…yet　afterwards；　when　they　had　been　made　good　and　gentle　by　him；　at　the　very　end　of　his　life　they　convicted　him　of　theft；　and　almost　put　him　to　death；　clearly　under　the　notion　that　he　was　a　malefactor。　　　Cal。　Well；　but　how　does　that　prove　Pericles'　badness？　　　Soc。　Why；　surely　you　would　say　that　he　was　a　bad　manager　of　asses　or　horses　or　oxen；　who　had　received　them　originally　neither　kicking　nor　butting　nor　biting　him；　and　implanted　in　them　all　these　savage　tricks？　Would　he　not　be　a　bad　manager　of　any　animals　who　received　them　gentle；　and　made　them　fiercer　than　they　were　when　he　received　them？　What　do　you　say？　　　Cal。　I　will　do　you　the　favour　of　saying　〃yes。〃　　　Soc。　And　will　you　also　do　me　the　favour　of　saying　whether　man　is　an　animal？　　　Cal。　Certainly　he　is。　　　Soc。　And　was　not　Pericles　a　shepherd　of　men？　　　Cal。　Yes。　　　Soc。　And　if　he　was　a　good　political　shepherd；　ought　not　the　animals　who　were　his　subjects；　as　we　were　just　now　acknowledging；　to　have　become　more　just；　and　not　more　unjust？　　　Cal。　Quite　true。　　　Soc。　And　are　not　just　men　gentle；　as　Homer　says？…or　are　you　of　anot