gorgias-第2部分

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　being　that　the　art　of　calculation　considers　not　only　the　quantities　of　odd　and　even　numbers；　but　also　their　numerical　relations　to　themselves　and　to　one　another。　And　suppose；　again；　I　were　to　say　that　astronomy　is　only　word…he　would　ask；　〃Words　about　what；　Socrates？〃　and　I　should　answer；　that　astronomy　tells　us　about　the　motions　of　the　stars　and　sun　and　moon；　and　their　relative　swiftness。　　　Gor。　You　would　be　quite　right；　Socrates。　　　Soc。　And　now　let　us　have　from　you；　Gorgias；　the　truth　about　rhetoric：　which　you　would　admit　（would　you　not？）　to　be　one　of　those　arts　which　act　always　and　fulfil　all　their　ends　through　the　medium　of　words？　　　Gor。　True。　　　Soc。　Words　which　do　what？　I　should　ask。　To　what　class　of　things　do　the　words　which　rhetoric　uses　relate？　　　Gor。　To　the　greatest；　Socrates；　and　the　best　of　human　things。　　　Soc。　That　again；　Gorgias　is　ambiguous；　I　am　still　in　the　dark：　for　which　are　the　greatest　and　best　of　human　things？　I　dare　say　that　you　have　heard　men　singing　at　feasts　the　old　drinking　song；　in　which　the　singers　enumerate　the　goods　of　life；　first　health；　beauty　next；　thirdly；　as　the　writer　of　the　song　says；　wealth　honesty　obtained。　　　Gor。　Yes；　I　know　the　song；　but　what　is　your　drift？　　　Soc。　I　mean　to　say；　that　the　producers　of　those　things　which　the　author　of　the　song　praises；　that　is　to　say；　the　physician；　the　trainer；　the　money…maker；　will　at　once　come　to　you；　and　first　the　physician　will　say：　〃O　Socrates；　Gorgias　is　deceiving　you；　for　my　art　is　concerned　with　the　greatest　good　of　men　and　not　his。〃　And　when　I　ask；　Who　are　you？　he　will　reply；　〃I　am　a　physician。〃　What　do　you　mean？　I　shall　say。　Do　you　mean　that　your　art　produces　the　greatest　good？　〃Certainly；〃　he　will　answer；　〃for　is　not　health　the　greatest　good？　What　greater　good　can　men　have；　Socrates？〃　And　after　him　the　trainer　will　come　and　say；　〃I　too；　Socrates；　shall　be　greatly　surprised　if　Gorgias　can　show　more　good　of　his　art　than　I　can　show　of　mine。〃　To　him　again　I　shall　say；　Who　are　you；　honest　friend；　and　what　is　your　business？　〃I　am　a　trainer；〃　he　will　reply；　〃and　my　business　is　to　make　men　beautiful　and　strong　in　body。〃　When　I　have　done　with　the　trainer；　there　arrives　the　money…maker；　and　he；　as　I　expect；　utterly　despise　them　all。　〃Consider　Socrates；〃　he　will　say；　〃whether　Gorgias　or　any　one…else　can　produce　any　greater　good　than　wealth。〃　Well；　you　and　I　say　to　him；　and　are　you　a　creator　of　wealth？　〃Yes；〃　he　replies。　And　who　are　you？　〃A　money…maker。〃　And　do　you　consider　wealth　to　be　the　greatest　good　of　man？　〃Of　course；〃　will　be　his　reply。　And　we　shall　rejoin：　Yes；　but　our　friend　Gorgias　contends　that　his　art　produces　a　greater　good　than　yours。　And　then　he　will　be　sure　to　go　on　and　ask；　〃What　good？　Let　Gorgias　answer。〃　Now　I　want　you；　Gorgias；　to　imagine　that　this　question　is　asked　of　you　by　them　and　by　me；　What　is　that　which；　as　you　say；　is　the　greatest　good　of　man；　and　of　which　you　are　the　creator？　Answer　us。　　　Gor。　That　good；　Socrates；　which　is　truly　the　greatest；　being　that　which　gives　to　men　freedom　in　their　own　persons；　and　to　individuals　the　power　of　ruling　over　others　in　their　several　states。　　　Soc。　And　what　would　you　consider　this　to　be？　　　Gor。　What　is　there　greater　than　the　word　which　persuades　the　judges　in　the　courts；　or　the　senators　in　the　council；　or　the　citizens　in　the　assembly；　or　at　any　other　political　meeting？…if　you　have　the　power　of　uttering　this　word；　you　will　have　the　physician　your　slave；　and　the　trainer　your　slave；　and　the　money…maker　of　whom　you　talk　will　be　found　to　gather　treasures；　not　for　himself；　but　for　you　who　are　able　to　speak　and　to　persuade　the　multitude。　　　Soc。　Now　I　think；　Gorgias；　that　you　have　very　accurately　explained　what　you　conceive　to　be　the　art　of　rhetoric；　and　you　mean　to　say；　if　I　am　not　mistaken；　that　rhetoric　is　the　artificer　of　persuasion；　having　this　and　no　other　business；　and　that　this　is　her　crown　and　end。　Do　you　know　any　other　effect　of　rhetoric　over　and　above　that　of　producing　persuasion？　　　Gor。　No：　the　definition　seems　to　me　very　fair；　Socrates；　for　persuasion　is　the　chief　end　of　rhetoric。　　　Soc。　Then　hear　me；　Gorgias；　for　I　am　quite　sure　that　if　there　ever　was　a　man　who…entered　on　the　discussion　of　a　matter　from　a　pure　love　of　knowing　the　truth；　I　am　such　a　one；　and　I　should　say　the　same　of　you。　　　Gor。　What　is　coming；　Socrates？　　　Soc。　I　will　tell　you：　I　am　very　well　aware　that　do　not　know　what；　according　to　you；　is　the　exact　nature；　or　what　are　the　topics　of　that　persuasion　of　which　you　speak；　and　which　is　given　by　rhetoric；　although　I　have　a　suspicion　about　both　the　one　and　the　other。　And　I　am　going　to　ask…what　is　this　power　of　persuasion　which　is　given　by　rhetoric；　and　about　what？　But　why；　if　I　have　a　suspicion；　do　I　ask　instead　of　telling　you？　Not　for　your　sake；　but　in　order　that　the　argument　may　proceed　in　such　a　manner　as　is　most　likely　to　set　forth　the　truth。　And　I　would　have　you　observe；　that　I　am　right　in　asking　this　further　question：　If　I　asked；　〃What　sort　of　a　painter　is　Zeuxis？〃　and　you　said；　〃The　painter　of　figures；〃　should　I　not　be　right　in　asking；　What　kind　of　figures；　and　where　do　you　find　them？〃　　　Gor。　Certainly。　　　Soc。　And　the　reason　for　asking　this　second　question　would　be；　that　there　are　other　painters　besides；　who　paint　many　other　figures？　　　Gor。　True。　　　Soc。　But　if　there　had　been　no　one　but　Zeuxis　who　painted　them；　then　you　would　have　answered　very　well？　　　Gor。　Quite　so。　　　Soc。　Now　I　was　it　to　know　about　rhetoric　in　the　same　way；…is　rhetoric　the　only　art　which　brings　persuasion；　or　do　other　arts　have　the　same　effect？　I　mean　to　say…Does　he　who　teaches　anything　persuade　men　of　that　which　he　teaches　or　not？　　　Gor。　He　persuades；　Socrates；…there　can　be　no　mistake　about　that。　　　Soc。　Again；　if　we　take　the　arts　of　which　we　were　just　now　speaking：…do　not　arithmetic　and　the　arithmeticians　teach　us　the　properties　of　number？　　　Gor。　Certainly。　　　Soc。　And　therefore　persuade　us　of　them？　　　Gor。　Yes。　　　Soc。　Then　arithmetic　as　well　as　rhetoric　is　an　artificer　of　persuasion？　　　Gor。　Clearly。　　　Soc。　And　if　any　one　asks　us　what　sort　of　persuasion；　and　about　what；…we　shall　answer；　persuasion　which　teaches　the　quantity　of　odd　and　even；　and　we　shall　be　able　to　show　that　all　the　other　arts　of　which　we　were　just　now　speaking　are　artificers　of　persuasion；　and　of　what　sort；　and　about　what。　　　Gor。　Very　true。　　　Soc。　Then　rhetoric　is　not　the　only　artificer　of　persuasion？　　　Gor。　True。　　　Soc。　Seeing；　then；　that　not　only　rhetoric　works　by　persuasion；　but　that　other　arts　do　the　same；　as　in　the　case　of　the　painter；　a　question　has　arisen　which　is　a　very　fair　one：　Of　what　persuasion　is　rhetoric　the　artificer；　and　about　what？…is　not　that　a　fair　way　of　putting　the　question？　　　Gor。　I　think　so。　　　Soc。　Then；　if　you　approve　the　question；　Gorgias；　what　is　the　answer？　　　Gor。　I　answer；　Socrates；　that　rhetoric　is　the　art　of　persuasion　in　courts　of　law　and　other　assemblies；　as　I　was　just　now　saying；　and　about　the　just　and　unjust。　　　Soc。　And　that；　Gorgias；　was　what　I　was　suspecting　to　be　your　notion；　yet　I　would　not　have　you　wonder　if　by…and…by　I　am　found　repeating　a　seemingly　plain　question；　for　I　ask　not　in　order　to　confute　you；　but　as　I　was　saying　that　the　argument　may　proceed　consecutively；　and　that　we　may　not　get　the　habit　of　anticipating　and　suspecting　the　meaning　of　one　another's　words；　I　would　have　you　develop　your　own　views　in　your　own　way；　whatever　may　be　your　hypothesis。　　　Gor。　I　think　that　you　are　quite　right；　Socrates。　　　Soc。　Then　let　me　raise　another　question；　there　is　such　a　thing　as　〃having　learned〃？　　　Gor。　Yes。　　　Soc。　And　there　is　also　〃having　believed〃？　　　Gor。　Yes。　　　Soc。　And　is　the　〃having　learned〃　the　same　〃having　believed；〃　and　are　learning　and　belief　the　same　things？　　　Gor。　In　my　judgment；　Socrates；　they　are　not　the　same。　　　Soc。　And　your　judgment　is　right；　as　you　may　ascertain　in　this　way：…If　a　person　were　to　say　to　you；　〃Is　there；　Gorgias；　a　false　belief　as　well　as　a　true？〃　…you　would　reply；　if　I　am　not　mistaken；　that　there　is。　　　Gor。　Yes。　　　Soc。　Well；　but　is　there　a　false　knowledge　as　well　as　a　true？　　　Gor。　No。　　　Soc。　No；　indeed；　and　this　again　proves　that　knowledge　and　belief　differ。　　　Gor。　Very　true。　　　Soc。　And　yet　those　who　have　learned　as　well　as　those　who　have　believed　are　persuaded？　　　Gor。　Just　so。　　　Soc。　Shall　we　then　assume　two　sorts　of　persuasion；…one　which　is　the　source　of　belief　without　knowledge；　as　the　other　is　of　knowledge？　　　Gor。　By　all　means。　　　Soc。　And　which　sort　of　persuasion　does　rhetoric　create　in　courts　of　law　and　other　assemblies　about　the　just　and　unjust；　the　sort　of　persuasion　which　gives　belief　without　knowledge；　or　that　which　gives　knowledge？　　　Gor。　Clearly；　Socrates；　that　which　only　gives　belief。　　　Soc。　Then　rhetoric；　as　would　appear；　is　the　artificer　of　a　persuasion　which　creates　belief　about　the　just　and　unjust；　but　gives　no　instruction　about　them？　　　Gor。　True。　　　Soc。　And　the　rhetorician　does　not　instruct　the　courts　of　law　or　other　assemblies　about　things　just　and　unjust；　but　he　creates　belief　about　them；　for　no　one　can　be　supposed　to　instruct　such　a　vast　multitude　about　such　high　matters　in　a　short　time？　　　Gor。　Certainly　not。　　　Soc。　Come；　then；　and　let　us　see　what　we　really　mean　about　rhetoric；　for　I　do　not　know　what　my　own　meaning　is　as　yet。　When　the　assembly　meets　to　elect　a　physician　or　a　shipwright　or　any　other　craftsman；　will　the　rhetorician　be　taken　into　counsel？　Surely　not。　For　at　every　election　he　ought　to　be　chosen　who　is　most　skilled；　and；　again；　when　walls　have　to　be　built　or　harbours　or　docks　to　be　constructed；　not　the　rhetorician　but　the　master　workman　will　advise；　or　when　generals　have　to　be　chosen　and　an　order　of　battle　arranged；　or　a　proposition　taken；　then　the　military　will　advise　and　not　the　rhetoricians：　what　do　you　say；　Gorgias？　Since　you　profess　to　be　a　rhetorician　and　a　maker　of　rhetoricians；　I　cannot　do　better　than　learn　the　nature　of　your　art　from　you。　And　here　let　me　assure　you　that　I　have　your　interest　in　view　as　well　as　my　own。　For　likely　enough　some　one　or　other　of　the　young　men　present　might　desire　to　become　your　pupil；　and　in　fact　I　see　some；　and　a　good　many　too；　who　have　this　wish；　but　they　would　be　too　modest　to　question　you。　And　therefore　when　you　are　interrogated　by　me；　I　would　have　you　imagine　that　you　are　interrogated　by　them。　〃What　is　the　use　of　comin