wgolding.lordoftheflies-第39部分

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　A。：　There　is　a　parallel；　I　think；　but　like　so　many　literary　parallels　it's　the　plain　fact　that　if　people　engage　in　writing
　about　humanity；　they're　likely　in　certain　circumstances　io　see　something　the　same　thing。　They're　both　looking；　after　all　at　the　same　object；　so　it　would　really　be　very　surprising　if　there　weren't　literary　parallels　to　be　drawn　between　this　book　and　that。
　
　？？？？？
　
　Q。：　I　have　one　more　question　about　Lord　of　the　Flies。　Mr。　Epstein　talks　about　sex　symbols　in　this　work。6　You　have　recently　said　that　you　purposely　left　man　and　woman　off　of　the　island　to　remove　the　。。。
　A。：　Remove　the　〃red　herring。〃
　Q。：　Yes。　I　wonder　if　you　concur　with　Mr。　Epstein's　observations。
　A。：　You're　probably　thinking　of　the　moment　when　they　kill　apig　。　。　。
　Q。：　Yes。
　A。：　And　I'm　assured　that　this　is　a　sexual　symbol　and　it　has　affinities　of　the　Oedipadian　wedding　night。　What　am　I　to　say　to　this？　I　suppose　the　only　thing　I　can　really　say　is　there　are　in　those　circumstances；　after　all；　precious　few　ways　of　killing　a　pig。　The　same　thing's　just　as　true　of　the　Oedipadian　wedding　night。
　
　6。See　below；　p。　279。…Eds。
　
　
　
　
　
　The　Meaning　of　It　All1
　Broadcast　on　the　BBC　Third　Programme；　August　28；　1959
　
　KERMODE：　I　should　like　to　begin；　Golding；　by　talking　about　an　article　on　your　work　which　I　know　you　liked　which　appeared　in　the　Kenyon　Review2　about　a　year　ago　in　which　he　says　many　admiring　things　about　all　your　books　but　introduces　a　distinction　between　fable　and　fiction　and　puts　you　very　much　on　the　fable　side；　arguing；　for　example；　that　in　Lord　of　the　Flies　you　incline　occasionally　not　to　give　a　full…body　presentation　of　people　living　and　behaving；　so　much　as　an　illustration　of　a　particular　theme；　would　you　accept　this　as　a　fair　ment　on　your　work？
　GOLDING：　Well；　what　I　would　regard　as　a　tremendous　pliment　to　myself　would　be　if　someone　would　substitute　the　word　〃myth〃　for　〃fable〃　because　I　think　a　myth　is　a　much　profounder　and　more　significant　thing　than　a　fable。　I　do　feel　fable　as　being　an　invented　thing　on　the　surface　whereas　myth　is　something　which　es　out　from　the　roots　of　things　in　the　ancient　sense　of　being　the　key　to　existence；　the　whole　meaning　of　life；　and　experience　as　a　whole。
　KERMODE：　You're　not　primarily　interested　in　giving　the　sort　of　body　and　pressure　of　lived　life　in　a　wide　society；　obviously　not；　because　all　your　books　have　been　concerned　with　either　persons　or　societies；　unnaturally　isolated　in　some　sense。　It　is　legitimate　to　assume　from　that　that　you　are　concerned　with　people　in　this　kind　of　extremity　of　solitariness。
　
　1。The　following　interview　was　reprinted　in　this　form　in　Books　and　Bookmen；　5　（October；　1959）；　9…10；　and　is　printed　in　part　here　by　permission　of　Frank　Kermode　and　William　Golding。
　2。John　Peter；　〃The　Fables　of　William　Golding；〃　Kentyon　Re…view；　19　（Autumn；　1957）；　577…592。　Reprinted　below；　pp。　229…234。…Eds。
　
　GOLDING：　Well；　no；　I　don't　think　it　is　legitimate。　My　own　feeling　about　it　is　that　their　isolation　is　a　convenient　one；　rather　than　an　unnatural　one。　Do　you　see　what　I　mean？
　KERMODE：　Yes；　I　do　see；　but　I'm　not　sure　about　the　word　〃convenient〃　here。　Convenient　to　you　because　you　want　to　treat　boys　in　the　absence　of　grown…ups；　is　this　what　you　mean？
　GOLDING：　Yes；　I　suppose　so。　You　see　it　depends　how　far　you　regard　intentions　as　being　readable。　Now；　you　know　and　I　know　about　teaching　people；　we　both　do　it　as　our　daily　bread。　Well；　you　see；　perhaps；　people　who　are　not　quite　as　immature　as　those　I　see；　but　my　own　immature　boys　I　watch　carefully　and　there　does　e　a　point　which　is　very　legible　in　their　society　at　which　you　can　see　all　those　things　（as　shown　in　Lord　of　the　Flies）　are　within　a　second　of　being　carried　out…it's　the　master　who　gets　the　right　boy　by　the　scruff　of　the　neck　and　hauls　him　back。　He　is　God　who　stops　a　murder　being　mitted。
　KERMODE：　Yes；　this　is　why　one　of　your　boys；　Piggy；　often　refers　to　the　absence　of　grown…ups　as　the　most　important　conditioning　factor　in　the　situation。　The　argument　is；　then；　that　out　of　a　human　group　of　this　kind；　the　human　invention　of　evil　will　proceed；　provided　that　certain　quite　arbitrary　checks　are　not　present
　GOLDING：　Yes；　I　think　so；　I　think　that　the　arbitrary　checks　that　you　talk　about　are　nothing　but　the　fruit　of　bitter　experience　of　people　who　are　adult　enough　to　realise；　〃Well；　I；　I　myself　am　vicious　and　would　like　to　kill　that　man；　and　he　is　vicious　and　would　like　to　kill　me；　and　therefore；　it　is　sensible　that　we　should　both　have　an　arbitrary　scheme　of　things　in　which　three　other　people　e　in　and　separate　us。〃
　KERMODE：　This　makes　it　interesting；　I　think；　to　consider　the　place　among　your　boys　of　the　boy；　Simon；　in　Lord　of　the　Flies；　who　is　different　from　the　others　and　who　understands　something　like　the　situation　you're　describing。　He　understands；　for　example；　that　the　evil　that　the　boys　fear；　the　beast　they　fear；　is　substantially　of　their　own　invention；　but　when；　in　fact；　he　announces　this；　he　himself　is　regarded　as
　evil　and　killed　accordingly。　Are　we　allowed　to　infer　from　your　myth　that　there　will　always　be　a　person　of　that　order　in　a　group；　or　is　this　too　much？
　GOLDING：　It　is；　I　think；　a　bit　unfair　not　so　much　because　it　isn't　germane；　but　simply　because　it　brings　up　too　much。　You　see；　I　think　on　the　one　hand　that　it　is　true　that　there　will　always　be　people　who　will　see　something　particularly　clearly；　and　will　not　be　listened　to；　and　if　they　are　a　particularly　outstanding　example　of　their　sort；　will　probably　be　killed　for　it。　But；　on　the　other　hand；　that　in　itself　brings　up　such　a　vast　kind　of　panorama。　What　so　many　intelligent　people　and　particularly；　if　I　may　say　so；　so　may　literary　people　find；　is　that　Simon　is　inprehensible。　But；　he　is　prehensible　to　the　illiterate　person。　The　illiterate　person　knows　about　saints　and　sanctity；　and　Simon　is　a　saint。3
　KERMODE：　Yes；　well　he's　a　land　of　scapegoat；　I　suppose；
　GOLDING：　No；　I　won't　agree。　You　are　really　flapping　a　kind　of　Golden　Bough　over　me；　or　waving　it　over　my　head；　but　I　don't　agree。　You　see；　a　saint　isn't　just　a　scapegoat；　a　saint　is　somebody　who　in　the　last　analysis　voluntarily　embraces　his　fate；　which　is　a　pretty　sticky　one；　and　he　is　for　the　illiterate　a　proof　of　the　existence　of　God　because　the　illiterate　person　who　is　not　brought　up　on　logic　and　not　brought　up　always　to　hope　for　the　worst　says；　〃Well；　a　person　like　this　cannot　exist　without　a　good　God。〃　Therefore　the　illiterate　person　finds　Simon　extremely　easy　to　understand；　someone　who　voluntarily　embraces　this　beast　goes　。　。　。　and　tries　to　get　rid　of　him　and　goes　to　give　the　good　news　to　the　ordinary　bestial　man　on　the　beach；　and　gets　killed　for　it。
　KERMODE：　Yes；　but　may　I　introduce　the　famous　Lawrence　caveat　here；　〃Never　trust　the　teller；　trust　the　tale〃？
　GOLDING：　Oh；　that's　absolute　nonsense。　But　of　course　the　man　who　tells　the　tale　if　he　has　a　tale　worth　telling　will　know　exactly　what　he　is　about　and　this　business　of　the　artist　as　a　sort　of　starry…eyed　inspired　creature；　dancing　along；　with　his　feet　two　or　three　feet　above　the　surface　of　the　earth；　not　really　knowing　what　sort　of　prints　he's　leaving　behind　him；　is　nothing　like　the　truth。
　
　3pare　the　following　remarks　with　Donald　R。　Spangler's　essay　〃Simon〃　on　pp。　211…215　in　this　volume。…Eds。
　
　KERMODE：　Well；　I　don't　think　it's　necessary　to　state　it　quite　so　extremely。　What　I　had　in　mind　here　was　simply　that　Simon　in　fact　is　ing　down　from　the　top　of　the　hill　where　he's　seen　the　dead　body　of　the　parachutist；　in　order　to　tell　the　other　people　that　all　is　well。　He's　not　embracing　his　faith　which　is　to　be　killed　by　the　other　people；　he　thinks　he's　going　to　put　them　right。
　GOLDING：　Ah；　well；　that's　again　a　question　of　scale；　isn't　ft？　The　point　was　that　out　of　all　the　people　on　that　island　who　would　ascend　the　mountain；　Simon　was　the　one　who　saw　it　was　the　thing　to　do；　and　actually　did　it；　nobody　else　dared。　That　is　embracing　your　fate；　you　see。
　KERMODE：　Ah；　yes；　without　really　any　sense　that　what　will　happen　in　the　end　is　that　he　shall　bee　the　beast；　which　is　what　he　does。
　COLDINC：　No；　he　doesn't　bee　the　beast；　he　bees　the　beast　in　other　people's　opinions。
　KERMODE：　He　bees　the　beast　in　the　text　also：　〃The　beast　was　on　its　knees　in　the　centre；　its　arms　folded　over　its　face。〃　Of　course；　you're　here　reporting　what　the　boys　in　their　orgiastic　fury　thought　Simon　was；　but　I　should　have　said　that　that　way　of　reporting　allows　a　certain　ambiguity　of　interpretation　here；　which　you　cannot；　in　fact；　deny　us。
　GOLDING：　I　thought　of　it　myself　originally；　I　think；　as　a　metaphor…the　kind　of　metaphor　of　existence　if　you　like；　and　the　dead　body　on　the　mountain　I　thought　of　as　being　history；　as　the　past。　There's　a　point　a　couple　of　chapters　before　where　these　children　on　the　island　have　got　themselves　into　a　hell　of　a　mess；　they're…it's　the　things　that　have　crawled　out　of　their　own　bones　and　their　own　veins；　they　don't　know　whether　it's　a　beast　from　sky；　air　or　where　it's　ing　but　there's　something　terrible　about　it　as　one　of　the　conditions　of　existence。
　At　the　moment　when　they're　all　most　anguished　they　say；　〃If　only　grown…ups　could　get　a　sign　to　us；　if　only　they　could　tell　us　what's　what〃…and　what　happens　is　that　a　dead　man　es　out　of　the　sky。　Now　that　is　not　God　being　dead；　as　some　people　have　said；　that　is　history。　He's　dead；　but　he　won't　lie　clown。　All　that　we　can　give　our　children　is　to　pass　on　to　them　this　distressing　business　of　a　United　States　of　Europe；　which　won't　work；　because　we　all　grin　at　each　other　across　borders　and　so　on　and　so　forth。　And　if　you　turn　round　to　your　parents　and　say　〃Please　help　me；〃　they　are　really　part　of　the　old　structure；　the　old　system；　the　old　world；　which　ought　to　be　good　but　at　the　moment　is　making　the　world　and　the　air　more　and　more　radioactive。
　KERMODE：　I　find　it's　extraordinarily　interesting　to　think　of　that　explanation　in　connection　with　the　Ballantyne4　treatment　of　the　same　theme。　I　don't　know　whether　you　would　like　to　say　just　how　far　and　how　ironically　we　ought　to　treat　this　connection。
　COLDING：　Well；　I　think；　fairly　deeply；　but　again；　not　ironically　in　the　bad　sense；　but　in　almost　a　passionate　sense。　You　see；　really；　I'm　getting　at　myself　in　this。　What　I'm